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[Chat(Android)] Mixed troop combat is not the same as single troop combat

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Posted on 2017-05-16 06:24:45 | Show thread starter's posts only

Base stats are indeed not equal. Each troop type has different base stats. When the game launched 1 year ago I believe it was [BBq] Cutthroat who found out the following:

Low Attack
High HP
High Defense

Medium Attack
Medium HP
Medium Defense

High Attack
Low HP
Low Defense

Noone knows the exact numbers. But it makes sense. Infantry scales better with defense to save losses. Tudi's test proves that. Back in the day there were no phalanxes or wedges so Infantry was always your first line of defense. They were designed to be more 'tankier' than the other troops.

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Posted on 2017-05-16 12:54:00 | Show thread starter's posts only

Posted on 2017-05-16 13:59:24 | Show thread starter's posts only

Now,to get back to the mix troops,don't always pressure nor believe these are lies cause quite frankly they arent,this is without hero's,hero's will help the one type even more if got the hero's for it

Posted on 2017-05-17 07:00:30 | Show thread starter's posts only

@Dareyoutry all i see are some random combat logs. I have 2 identical accounts. No heroes, no castle wall, no research, no items, no buffs, no battle rage ...
If you wish to verify my combat logs, please use the exact same type of setup. Ofc if you have a different account you will obtain different results.

You have to understand that combat scales in a non liniar way ( maybe logarithmic, maybe exponential ). In case you modify one stat you will not get a 2x, 3x ...Yx multiplier. You might get a 2.2x or maybe 4x .... Again. Please use an exactly identical account.

I tried to elaborate on base stats of units. But that was not the point of this topic.

Since there are topics poping up if mixed troop is better than single troop. Here is a small table regarding combat power. I'm not saying this is an ultimate table, it's just to give you hints about which might be better.
( with lots and lots of mathematics you might be able to solve that 9 unknown variable formula. The issue is that combat does not scale liniarly. This might raise the issue to a new level. Maybe 18 variables with coefficients .. ( ex movement speed, formation, distance, squad size, first line falls, second line falls...) )

AttackerDefenderAtackers deadDefenders deadAttacker KillPowerDefenders KillPowerAttacker Combat scoreDefender Combat score
100 Infantry 100 Infantry 20 Infantry 20 Infantry 0.20.21616
100 Infantry 100 Cavalry 54 Infantry 8 Cavalry 0.080.54349
100 Infantry 100 Archer 4 Infantry 64 Archer 0.640.04611
100 Infantry 100 Trebuchet 56 Trebuchet 0.560560
100 Archer 100 Cavalry 8 Archer 54 Cavalry 0.540.08493
100 Archer 100 Archer 20 Archer 20 Archer 0.20.21616
100 Archer 100 Trebuchet 8 Archer 44 Trebuchet 0.440.08404
100 Cavalry100 Cavalry 25 Cavalry25 Cavalry 0.250.251818
100 Cavalry100 Trebuchet 2 Cavalry58 Trebuchet 0.570.02560
200 Archer 200 Infantry 128 Archer 12 Infantry 0.060.64260
200 Cavalry200 Infantry 16 Cavalry108 Infantry 0.540.08493
200 Archer 200 Cavalry 16 Archer 108 Cavalry 0.540.08493
100 Infantry 50 Infantry 50 Archer 9 Infantry 27 Infantry 0.270.09246
100 Infantry 50 Archer 50 Cavalry 24 Infantry 12 Cavalry 0.120.24921
100 Infantry 50 Infantry 50 Cavalry 34 Infantry 23 Infantry 0.230.341526
100 Cavalry50 Infantry 50 Archer 27 Cavalry50 Infantry 0.50.273613
100 Cavalry50 Infantry 50 Cavalry 13 Cavalry24 Infantry 16 Cavalry 0.40.13347
100 Cavalry50 Archer 50 Cavalry 36 Cavalry24 Cavalry 0.240.361527
100 Archer 50 Infantry 50 Archer 38 Archer 8 Infantry 0.080.38434
100 Archer 50 Infantry 50 Cavalry 33 Archer 8 Infantry 0.080.33530
100 Archer 50 Archer 50 Cavalry 10 Archer 50 Cavalry 0.50.1455
100 Infantry 100 Archer 100 Cavalry100 Infantry 100 Archer 100 Cavalry 66 Infantry 14 Cavalry66 Infantry 14 Cavalry 0.260.261919
99 Infantry 33 Infantry 33 Archer 33 Cavalry 18 Infantry 26 Infantry 0.260.182113
99 Cavalry33 Infantry 33 Archer 33 Cavalry 23 Cavalry16 Infantry 17 Cavalry 0.330.232515
99 Archer 33 Infantry 33 Archer 33 Cavalry 24 Archer 9 Infantry 0.090.24622
51 Infantry 51 Archer 34 Infantry 34 Archer 34 Cavalry 26 Infantry 14 Infantry 0.130.251021
51 Infantry 51 Cavalry34 Infantry 34 Archer 34 Cavalry 23 Infantry 22 Infantry 7 Cavalry 0.280.222216
51 Archer 51 Cavalry34 Infantry 34 Archer 34 Cavalry 23 Cavalry18 Infantry 3 Cavalry 0.20.221517

Posted on 2017-05-17 13:22:11 | Show thread starter's posts only

You really have to use identical accounts if you want to do testing. Words are not enough but only numbers will show your point. If battle stats doesn't scale in a linear manner then your testing doesn't help much in either proving or disproving Tudi's theory. Since we do not know whether it scales linear or not then identical accounts should be use for testing to lessen potential variables.

This theory is interesting and I would love to see how it will progress but this will be difficult to prove. Aside from a lot of math, there is also a lot of data to analyze and to criticize on. Good luck! Might be nice to try with bigger armies because I remember in some posts that there are some rounding up issues sometimes especially when smaller armies fight each other. It might help or not??

Posted on 2017-05-18 01:59:50 | Show thread starter's posts only

Right now i'm leveling oathkeeper to be able to test the theory of exponential scaling of defense. Claim made by Mythmaker ( mod here ). Sadly this will take me about a month or more. Also building up army, 2600 so far, will take me ages to test 10k vs 10k combats.

I have about 300 sample points and using automatic function generators to try to find a best fit model to even get close to predicting a possible fight outcome using infantry phalanx and infantry only. And fail. I repeat, using AUTOMATIC function generator. It's not me doing it. Probably some smart guy from math university. And still, there is no simple math formula. It's like formula changes over the scale of battles. Still, there can be some conclusions be drawn.

basic instinct would say combat uses some sort of formula :
SurvivorCount = DefenderCount * DefenderHP  - ( DefenderDefense - AttackerAttack ) *AttackerCount
The issue with this formula that it would not explain logarithmic or exponential fight outcome. All tests hint that this is not the formula we are looking for.

Or maybe a simpler one that would explain exponential growth of HP and Defense
SurvivorCount = DefenderCount * DefenderHP * DefenderDefense - AttackerAttack * AttackerCount
Simple tests can confirm that this formula can't be true either
This would make HP + def items scale combat results out of the roof.

1000i vs 1000i=780i/780i    220 died
with oathkeeper : +2.5% hp
1000i vs 1000i=789i/773i    227 died    -> 7 increase -> 3.1% ( made another test to remove 10% squad attack. That was 3% increased dead count). HP decreased dead count by 9. That is a 4.2% increase )
with attacker having 20% atk boost
1000i vs 1000i=788i/728i    272 died    -> 52 increase -> 23% increase. Note that survivor count increased, this proves that fight happens in multiple stages. How many stages ? Tested from 10 to 60 and still could not find a best fit formula.
attacker has 20% def boost
1000i vs 1000i=792/780    220 died -> 0% increase ( could be rounding issue !!! Should retest !!! ) 12 less died from attacker -> 5.7% decrease
with oathkeeper : +2.5 hp + 20% def buff ( what a moment to run out of infantries for testing ... )
100i vs 100i=80i/79i -> 21 died versus 20. -> 5% death count increase. No longer boosted survivor count. Formula is completely different from 1000i tests. Will need to remake.

From these numbers you can create a formula that HP is X times larger than defense, Atk y times larger than defense ... all in all get 1 single unknown variable. And you can even calculate flat values for Atk, Def, Hp.
Dare to make a test with different troop count and you get completely different values.

    100i / 50i                95/26        -> 1 infantry kills 0.24 infantry
    200i / 100i                188/48    -> 1 infantry kills 0.26 infantry -> so it increased
    300i / 150i                283/74   -> 1 infantry kills 0.253 infantry -> wait what ? it decreased ?
    400i/200i                376/96        -> 1 infantry kills 0.26 infantry
    500i/250i                471/118    -> 1 infantry kills 0.264 infantry
    1000i/500i                936/236    -> 1 infantry kills 0.264 infantry -> hmm, stable values ?
There is a chance. Just a chance. Values after troop count 1000 will start to stabilize. This would hint that HP,Def,Atk as flat values are around or less than 1 and unless you start to multiply them by 250 they will fall below 0 and get eaten up. Units with less than 1 HP ? Doubt it. Will make more tests....